Claims Dept: Dole on driver's license vote


U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Dole criticized Democratic rival Kay Hagan's record on illegal immigration at an N.C. Bar Association debate in Atlantic Beach on June 21, 2008.

What she said: "My opponent has voted to make it easier for illegal immigrants to get North Carolina driver's licenses."

The background: In an effort to encourage illegal immigrants to get car insurance, the N.C. Division of Motor Vehicles decided in 1998 that applicants establishing residency for a driver's license could submit a broad range of forms of identification, including papers issued by the Mexican government.

The looser standards led to reports that immigrants from other states were getting North Carolina IDs, then using those to get licenses back home.

After the Sept. 11 attacks, concerns about fraud and national security led state lawmakers to toughen standards for driver's licenses. Republican legislators sponsored bills that would have required a Social Security number, making getting a license impossible for illegal immigrants.

But Democratic leaders in the state Senate sent those bills to die in committee, so neither Hagan nor any other senator voted on them. Instead, they opted to require applicants provide either a Social Security number or an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, which is given to all U.S. workers regardless of immigration status.

The measure, which Hagan supported, did not make it impossible for illegal immigrants to get a license, though it did make it more difficult. Over the following four years, the number of licenses issued without proof of citizenship dropped by roughly half.

Measures to toughen standards further also died in committee over the next several years. Then, in 2006, the legislature ordered the DMV to stop accepting taxpayer ID numbers, essentially making it impossible for illegal immigrants to get a license. Hagan supported that measure as well.

A Dole spokesman, Hogan Gidley, argued that the state Senate should have adopted the tougher standards earlier, and said it was still easier to get a driver's license in North Carolina than in other states after the 2001 vote.

"Social Security numbers should be the standard, and anything less than that is making it easier," he said.

Is the claim true? No. In 2001, Hagan voted to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get licenses, and in 2006 she voted to make it impossible. It's fair to say that Senate Democrats — Hagan included — could have backed stronger standards, but that's not the same thing as voting to "make it easier."

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Re: Claims Dept: Dole on driver's license vote

Using this as an example:

Is the claim true? No. In 2001, Hagan voted to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get licenses, and in 2006 she voted to make it impossible. It's fair to say that Senate Democrats — Hagan included — could have backed stronger standards, but that's not the same thing as voting to "make it easier."

...the first part: "Is the claim true? No. In 2001, Hagan voted to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get licenses, and in 2006 she voted to make it impossible." ...is basically a neutral statement of fact.

The second part: "It's fair to say that Senate Democrats — Hagan included — could have backed stronger standards, but that's not the same thing as voting to "make it easier." ...is not neutral. It is an editorialization wherein the writer is telling readers how to interpret the facts.

As a reader it is my place to decide whether the proffered facts do or do not support the claim in question. One the one hand, Hagan's record at least technically refutes Dole's claim. On the other hand, it is within reason to feel that failing to come out stronger against licensing illegals is tantamount to making it easier for them. A more graphic example would be if Hagan had voted to require illegals to stand on one foot while applying, thereby making it 'harder' to obtain a NC license. Technically correct, but....

I applaud the intent and efforts of the Claim Dept., but ask they restrict themselves to the facts and leave interpretations of the facts out of it. The N&O is so obviously leftist and liberal (read the recent editorial torpedo against Pat McCrory implying he believes Sheriff Andy Taylor is real) that it's created the need to be scrupulously exacting when purporting to be any sort of bipartisan fact-checker. Bias isn't always overt and purposely committed. Bias may be injected merely by being selective about whose and which claims are chosen for review. Also, the biased are typically blinded to their own bias as a requisite of being biased.

Re: Claims Dept: Dole on driver's license vote

Ryan:

I fully understand your position as the bearer of good and bad news and your attempts to spur conversation. By no means was my previous post an attack on you, I was merely stating that I recognize where the anger is coming from.

Let me be clear

I think you're misunderstanding the point of the fact-check.

I'm not defending the 2001 measure or attacking it. Whether or not the bill went far enough or too far is a political decision that readers — and eventually voters — can decide.

But the taxpayer ID number provision was more of a requirement than the state had before. (Again, whether taxpayer ID numbers should be used, etc., etc., is for you guys to debate.)

The Claims Dept. item simply states that the measure did not, in fact, make it easier for illegal immigrants to get licenses than it was before.

You are free to argue that it did not make it tough enough, had ulterior political motives, dodged the real issue, ad infinitum.

But as a U.S. senator once said, "We are all entitled to our own opinions. None of us are entitled to our own facts." 

— RTB 

E-mail from Hagan's campaign

For the record, I've only received one e-mail from the Hagan campaign on her immigration record.

From press secretary Dave Hoffman on June 2 (quoted here):

2006: Hagan Voted For A Bill To Prevent Illegal Immigrants From Obtaining Drivers’ Licenses. In July 2006, the Associated Press reported that the North Carolina General Assembly had adopted a provision that would require all applicants for a driver’s license present proof of legal presence through either a Social Security number or a valid visa issued by the Department of Homeland Security. An Individual Taxpayer Identification Number issued by the IRS would no longer be considered a valid form of identification. The provision was included in a larger bill addressing other technical changes to the General Statutes as recommended by the General Statutes Commission. [Raleigh Associated Press, 7/27/06; SB 602, Vote 1585, 7/26/06, passed 41-6]

2007: Budget Included Immigration Training For Sheriffs. In 2007, the North Carolina State budget included $750,000 to train sheriffs’ offices on illegal immigration. [Asheville Citizen-Times, 8/1/07]

2007: Hagan Voted To Study Immigrants’ Impact. In 2007, Hagan voted to study the impacts of illegal immigrants on the state’s health care, education, social services and criminal justice systems, as well as the state’s economy. [S 1256, Vote 1219, 8/1/07]

Note that he does not mention the 2001 bill.

— RTB

Re: Claims Dept: Dole on driver's license vote

The point of a fact-check is to make a determination. Trust me, it's the least pleasant part of this job. Anyway, I wrote an equally strong fact-check on Hagan's claim on unfunded mandates, but apparently that doesn't count with you guys.

— RTB 

Re: Claims Dept: Dole on driver's license vote

I have just been watching this conversation heat up and so I wanted to throw my two cents in the ring. First of all, because you are on facebook in someone's group, does not mean you are there to support them. I am apart of Obama's website and facebook, but that is because I like to know what pandering they are disiminating on a particular day.

Is the claim true? No. In 2001, Hagan voted to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get licenses, and in 2006 she voted to make it impossible. It's fair to say that Senate Democrats — Hagan included — could have backed stronger standards, but that's not the same thing as voting to "make it easier."

That quote right there makes it clear that there is a little partiality. Present the facts and let the public decide. When it all is said and done, Hagan simply did not take a leadership role and back tougher requirements, if she truly felt them necessary. Further supporting the anger towards RTB, because she is just a pawn with no backbone.

Re: Ryan- Don't be the Hagan Spin Machine's Schill do some homew

Yeah, good thing we decided to do something about all those Hispanic hijackers on 9-11...

psst... that's sarcasm, if "your" concerned about it.

Dome's Facebook profile

Dome has a longtime policy of friending anyone who asks us on Facebook. We also join any N.C.-related political group we see on the social networking site.

It would be a mistake to try to guess our political leanings from what has been an essentially random process.

Anyway, if you look closer, you'll see that we're listed as fans of both McCrory and Perdue, Hagan and Dole, etc. etc.   

— RTB 

Re: Claims Dept: Dole on driver's license vote

I have talked to many African-Americans as well as members of all ethnic groups. They are against the illegals being here but will still vote Democratic. I plainly explain to them that Democratic politicians are not for making it harder for illegals to live here. It is all about the amnesty thing and future votes.

Ryan, how would you like to moderate a debate between me and Blue? Now I know by your facebook page that you lean left, I still think you could be fair.

Paul Terrell III

Terrell III for State House
Republican nominee for the 33rd district-North Carolina State House
4549 Tollington Drive
Raleigh, NC 27604
919-523-0304 Cell
http://terrellforhouse33.blogspot.com/

Ryan- Don't be the Hagan Spin Machine's Schill do some homework.

Ryan-

Don't be the Hagan Spin Machine's Schill, do some homework. Didn't they teach you anything in Journalism School?

Show some initiative. Please.

Call John Herrera, Carrboro Alderman. Talk to Matty in Basnight's office. Call anybody at El Pueblo. Assuming they are honest with you they'll clue you into how those "get tough on illegals changes" (according to Hagan) made it into the budget provision. It was to make sure illegals could continue to get licenses post 9-11. And I'm not arguing that it was the wrong move. Just that the claimed intent at the time just ain't what you and Hagan claim it was.

The license provision was inserted into the final budget post 9-11 after the hijackers got on the planes with licenses issued by various states in our country. The Democrats wanted to try and keep terrorists from getting licenses but make sure illegals were not denied licenses in the process.

You shouldn't rely on some blog poster to clue you into this. You really should do your freaking homework and stop embarrassing yourself by swallowing hook, line and sinker the Democrats BS revison of history on this issue.

If you have any evidence that I'm wrong please provide it. You can post it right here in this thread for the whole world to see.

In fact, why don't you post the emails the Hagan campaign sent you with this revisionist spin you're schilling into this thread?

It would at least give us all some sense of relief. As it would prove you didn't come up with this ludicrously pro-Hagan biased spin on your own intiative and provide us some hope for your future objectivity.

You know your readers deserve and expect better.

Re: Claims Dept: Dole on driver's license vote

The choice in NC is clear. If your concerned with illegal immigration do not vote for a Democrat. In NC, bills combatting illegal immigration are sent to committee by Democrat leadership in order to die and never reach the floor for a vote. Same in the U.S. House (Nancy Pelosi, i.e., the SAVE Act) and the Senate (Harry Reid - never met an illegal alien he wasn't ready to hug.) Illegal immigration is not a single issue topic. It pervades every portion of society from the state of the economy to gas prices to infrastructure costs to crime and taxes spent on social services including education and health care. There is not one segment of society that is not touched negatively by illegal immigration.

Re-elect Senator Dole. She fights against illegal immigration and refuses to grant amnesty. That is what we need representing NC in the U.S. Senate.

Re: Shame on you Ryan

If you have any evidence about that provision, I would like to see it. You can e-mail it to dome@newsobserver.com.

At any rate, the matricula consular had been accepted since 1998. Even if, as you say, Hagan inserted that provision into the budget, it still would not have "made it easier" for illegal immigrants to get licenses, it just didn't make it tougher.

— RTB

Shame on you Ryan

This revisionist intepretation of history and Hagan's vote, undoubtably provide by Hagan's campaign and swallowed by your dumb arse, is complete horse manure. She (Hagan as a member of the Democrat leadership in the General Assembly) put the matricula consular in the bill's provisions to make sure illegals could keep getting licenses.

The purpose of this provision was not to tighten up on illegals getting driver's licenses. If it was find a contemporary 2001 newspaper quote to that effect.

This is just another example of how you, yes you personally Ryan Teague Beckwith, and the N & O are totally in the tank for the Democrats. Nothing has changed since Frank Daniels sold the paper. You and the paper are nothing but a bunch of schills and flacks.

You personally and professionally should be ashamed of yourself. Shame, Shame, Shame.