newsobserver.com projects - J. Williams Thorne - Comments

Re: Who has been expelled from the legislature?

Isaac136 — Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:53:54 -0400

The burden of proof for a member to be expelled should not rise to the level of criminal conviction, for godsakes.

The standard for criminal conviction is what it is because what that person stands to lose is life or liberty. We're talking about tolerable behavior, here, folks, not whether or not s/he raped or murdered.

Conviction of a civil offense is not as perilous, but certainly a person could lose his/her life-savings.

What we're talking about is whether a person is permitted to flout his oath of office by the body before which he swore. This is not a hard call, folks.

Re: Who has been expelled from the legislature?

bkrueger — Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:21:55 -0400

A quick scan of the links above indicates that at least Turner, Thorne, Potter, Roberts and Brown were expelled without having been convicted of a crime.

It looks like Gilbert was expelled and then cleared of criminal charges.

Then there's Clary, who was convicted, then elected, then resigned, then re-elected and then expelled.

Re: Who has been expelled from the legislature?

cicero01 — Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:50:20 -0400

Embezzlement, theft, fraud, libel, pay scandals: these sound like good grounds to expell someone. Question is: was the General Assembly's expulsion before or after the legislator was convicted of these crimes? This is the key question.

Re: "Where were there Quakers?"

pauljones — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:48:27 -0500

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaker_history

"The Society in Ireland, and later, the United States suffered a number of separations during the 19th century. In 1827-28, the views and popularity of Elias Hicks resulted in a division within five yearly meetings, Philadelphia, New York, Ohio, Indiana, and Baltimore. Rural Friends, who had increasingly chafed under the control of urban leaders, sided with Hicks and naturally took a stand against strong discipline in doctrinal questions. Those who supported Hicks were tagged as "Hicksites," while Friends who opposed him were labeled "Orthodox." The latter had more adherents overall but were plagued by subsequent splintering. The only division the Hicksites experienced was when a small group of upper class and reform-minded Progressive Friends of Longwood, Pennsylvania, emerged in the 1840s; they maintained a precarious position for about a century."

For the definitive description of the Longwood Society see http://undergroundrr.kennett.net/longwoodmeeting.html

Re: The Gray Lady on Thorne

ryanteaguebeckwith — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:53:17 -0500

The Times appears to back the "blasphemous doctrine" wording. Dome had earlier been unclear about whether or not that amendment (replacing "sacrilegious") was accepted, but we're more confident now.

— RTB

Re: Almost unremembered in Warren County

ryanteaguebeckwith — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:23:27 -0500

Two quick notes:

1. Some sources say his name was J. Williams, others J. William. The Warren County history goes with William.

2. The footnote cites the Warrenton Gazette on Dec. 8, 1874, and Jan. 8, 1875.

— RTB

Re: "Where were there Quakers?"

ryanteaguebeckwith — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:44:46 -0500

OK, then, Domesters. See if you can track down anything on the Society of Progressive Friends. I'm off to the Wake County library to look up another book on Mr. Thorne. We're closing in.

— RTB

Re: J. Williams Thorne, poet

pauljones — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:41:53 -0500

"Quakers have been very important in the history of North Carolina from colonial days, when one Friend served as governor [Archdale, 1695 - pj]. North Carolina Quakers faced great difficulties as the result of their relatively early decision to give up slaveholding, and many left the state for points west.

Despite the large migration of Quakers from North Carolina in the 19th century, the state today still has the second largest number of Friends in the country. Proportionately, North Carolina ranks fourth."

From http://www.quakerinfo.com/quak_us.shtml

"Where were there Quakers?"

rubyji — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:27:45 -0500

They were and are all over Guilford County.

Wikipedia: "The county was formed in 1771 from parts of Rowan County and Orange County. It was named for Francis North, 1st Earl of Guildford, father of Frederick North, Lord North, British Prime Minister from 1770 to 1782. The Quaker church played a major role in the European settlement of the county, and numerous Quakers still live in the county." (See also: Guilford College.)

And in Fayetteville.

Re: J. Williams Thorne, poet

ryanteaguebeckwith — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:17:00 -0500

Also, where were there Quakers?

I knew about the Moravian connection from Pennsylvania and Winston-Salem, thanks to their tasty little cookies. But not aware of the Quakers down here.

Readers?

— RTB

Re: J. Williams Thorne, poet

ryanteaguebeckwith — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:15:00 -0500

I think we have well established that geography is not my strong point.

I changed the wording of the post. We'll see if we can dig up the pamphlet that he wrote to see just what the heck it said.

It does look like his expulsion was more political than religious, though.

Thanks for the help!

— RTB

Re: J. Williams Thorne, poet

pauljones — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:10:11 -0500

Geography lesson. Thorne and many Quakers were from Pennsylvania. That's not New England.

Although Thorne may have been a carpetbagger of sorts, he was not isolated by his religion. Before and after Reconstruction, Quakers had a strong presence in North Carolina.

Also note that Thorne was reacting to a sermon in Chester County PA. You say that but to highlight that his transgression wasn't with an NC preacher.

Re: J. Williams Thorne, poet

liam — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:05:59 -0500

This is really great stuff. Thanks for sharing, I love state legislative history.